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§@ªÌ ¥h¤ô formula discussion
clownfish
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¤å³¹: 2681
¨Ó¦Û: Malaysia " Penang "
31 ¤_ 2004-03-11 13:31  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
thank you big smile

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Yes big smile , so i think last time do happen some fish friend that setting as case 2 .¤ô¥h­ø¤Á , but change to case 1 ¤ô¥h become OK big smile

from 138 theory V=(2gH)squra . when H increase >> velocity increase . so flow rate increase big smile

or another way. when ¤ô¥h­ø¤Á the water level will become higher .so some bio ball will dip inside water. but when the water level increase to some level will not increase any more. becoz the H increase make the water flow faster ,flow rate become balance at that level so water level maintain at that level big smile

.



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¤å³¹: 6138
32 ¤_ 2004-03-11 13:55  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
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33 ¤_ 2004-03-11 14:27  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ICQ ¡G 73518060  OICQ ¡G 10070521  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
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34 ¤_ 2004-03-11 14:40  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
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wongkf





¤å³¹: 16
35 ¤_ 2004-03-11 14:54  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
It's true that your theory can be used to estimate the maximum flow rate of ¥h¤ô pipe, but substitue "D" = H is wrong.
You should substitue the height of "level A" in the formula, that is, the water level of the falling chamber of main tank.
The maximum water level allowed is equal to the height of the falling chamber of main tank. So assume your last chamber height is 1m and your pipe size is 0.025m. Then the maximum circulation flow rate allowed would be 7200 L/H. (Assume no friction loss, the falling pipe connect to sump tank without elbow)
So,
if circulation rate > >7200 L/H, the water level of the whole tank rise
If circulation rate = 7200 L/H, the falling chamber would full of water
if circulation rate < 7200, the falling chamber would not full.
Assume "level A" of falling chamber is 0.2m , then, the actual circulation rate is about 3500 L/H.
So, by measuring the height of "level A" and your pipe size, you can estimate your existing circulation flow rate.
But, for the above example, is it mean that we cannot buy a pump of larger than 7200L/H? The answer is no, we still can have pump larger than 7200L/H.
Why? It is because 7200L/H is only the specified flow rate of the pump. It mean that under no resistance, it can output 7200L/H.
But it's true that the total flow rate of the two outlets cannot be larger than 7200L/H.

Example xx)
To size the pump , you need full hydraulic calculation.
Q in L/min
P in bar (assume 1 bar = 10m)
Refer to the drawings
Assume you want to have about 2000 L/H, that is, about 1000L/H from nozzle 1, Q1 = 17 L/min
assume k factor of nozzle 1 = 100, (just assumption, usually check from table)
then, pressure at 1 (P1):
Q1 = 100 x sqrt (P1)
17 = 100 x sqrt(P1)
thus, P1 = 0.0289 bar
neglect length of 1-2, assume supply pipe = 20mm
equivalent lenght (EL) of 20 mm elbow = 0.3m (usually from table),
assume length of 1-3 = 1m
total EL from 1 to 3 = 1 + 0.3 = 1.3
k factor for 20mm pipe, k20 = 3.8 x 10^-5
then pressure loss across 1-4, P14 = k20 x EL x Q13 ^2,
(actual P = k x EL x Q^1.85, but I assume Q^2 for simplification)
P14 = 3.8 x 10 ^ -5 x 1.3 x 17^2
P14 = 0.014 bar
thus, P at 4, P4 = P1 + P14 = 0.0289 + 0.014 = 0.043 bar,
neglect the T joint at 4 for simplification (actually, you cannot neglect that)
Assume k factor for nozzle 1 = nozzle 3 = 100
Then Q3 = 100 x sqrt (0.043)
Q3 = 20.7 L/min

So, total flow rate from 5 to 4, Q5 = 17 + 20.7 = 37.7 L/min,
Assume length of 5 to 4 = 0.5,
then P loss from 5 to 4, P45 = k20 x Q5 ^ 2 x EL, (EL = 0.5 + 0.3 = 0.8)
thus, P45 = 3.8 x 10^ -5 x 37.7^2 x 0.8 = 0.043 bar
thus P5 = P4 + P45 = 0.043 + 0.043 = 0.086 bar
Assume length of 5-6 = 1.5 m
P6 = P5 + static pressure + loss
P6 = 0.086 + 0.15 (static) + 3.8 x 10^-5 x 1.5 x 37.7^2 ( system characteristic)
P6 = 0.317 bar
P6 = 3.17 m
So, at 6 , P = 3.17m, 2262 L/H
When you plot this point on the pump curve, if the point is within the pump curve, then your pump can provide more than the flow you need, if it is outside the pump curve, the pump cannot provide sufficient flow.

Actually, if you want to check the exact flow rate, you can substitue, different flow at the above system characteristic, e.g. when Q = 0, P6 = 0.236 bar,
when Q = 10, P6 = 0.241, then the system characteristic curve can be plot on the pump curve. The intersection point is the operating point.

Please note all the above k factors are not true but just to illustrate the calculation. You have to refer to some book for the true value.



wongkf





¤å³¹: 16
36 ¤_ 2004-03-11 15:08  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
Please note that level A is counted from the bottom of the main tank


clownfish
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¤å³¹: 2681
¨Ó¦Û: Malaysia " Penang "
37 ¤_ 2004-03-11 15:33  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
wongkf san
u r right. it should be using level A to calculate but hard to defind the A height . therefore i use the H to calculate.it is easy to measure and everybody can get it before tank setting , ofcoz this will come to less L/hr , but my target is to make simple guide to prevent pump too strong cause ¸¨¤ô problems. so i prefer to estimate / calculate it smaller tongue

thank you very much. u realy detail explanation .
and i need some time to study your example.tongue
is good example . happy to get your support for this calculation.
i will try to make a simple guide line for ¥h¤ô³ï diameter decision.
hope u can help to commend or do adjustment for that guide line big smile



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wongkf





¤å³¹: 16
38 ¤_ 2004-03-11 15:55  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
Level A is difficult to determine but the maximum height allowed for level A is constant. It is simply the height of your tank or the height of your chamber.
Rising the level of main tank actually cannot increase the flow rate. The maximum flow rate depend on the depth of the main tank only.


clownfish
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¤å³¹: 2681
¨Ó¦Û: Malaysia " Penang "
39 ¤_ 2004-03-11 15:59  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
E....... question
A is count from " bottom of main tank to water level " ??

yeah notice 1 thing is haiven san have ¥h¤ô problems.
but i calculate the data he give Q = 5755 L/hr , but his pump is 4200L/hr .
should be OK . but.................. ???
can u help to calculate his tank flow rate.
is it we need to make some discount of the flow rate ??
or my make mistake calculation blushblush
thank you big smile



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clownfish
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¤å³¹: 2681
¨Ó¦Û: Malaysia " Penang "
40 ¤_ 2004-03-11 16:21  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
wongkf san,
yes u r right. i can consider the max height as chamber height big smile
but i prefer more safe data. so i use minimum ( height ¥h¤ô³ï ) to calculate it tongue becoz we also will place bio-ball inside the chamber. if i calculate the chamber height mean all the bio ball will be in the water tongue

wongkf san,
regarding your A level i have some confuse .
my thinking : it should consider the height "H " from sump to main. as below drawing.




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wongkf





¤å³¹: 16
41 ¤_ 2004-03-11 17:18  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
Firstly, the drain pipe of Haiven have two 90 degree elbows before coming down to the sump, right? I read from his drawing of the previous post.
Secondly, the sump tank is open to atmosphere. It's not a pressurized tank.
Thirdly, your question is becoming more complicated. I have to go to Fish Street Now smile , may get back to you later after I think more.


clownfish
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¤å³¹: 2681
¨Ó¦Û: Malaysia " Penang "
42 ¤_ 2004-03-11 17:46  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
¥uÓì¥Î¤_ IE :-)
ok
thank you big smile

wish u get a nice fish / coral big smilebig smile



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choinm





¤å³¹: 986
43 ¤_ 2004-03-11 19:54  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
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wongkf





¤å³¹: 16
44 ¤_ 2004-03-11 20:05  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
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catlee





¤å³¹: 2602
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45 ¤_ 2004-03-11 20:34  Æ[¬Ý¸Ó¥Î¤áªº­Ó¤H¸ê®Æ  ·j´M³o­Ó¥Î¤áµoªíªº©Ò¦³¤å³¹  §â¤å³¹¤º®eÎ`¨î¨ì°Å¶KªO¡C
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» ¾x ¥« ¦B «Ç » Misc. Equipment ¡º¨ä¥¦¾¹§÷¡º  

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