Topic: 點都估唔到會係咁 |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-03-30 12:06 呢輪唔知攪乜鬼, d珊瑚開得唔好或瓜柴, 好似: 瓜o左兩隻蚌, 都係由正常然後慢慢唔開, 最後縮肉瓜柴:(。自己唔識問o下舖頭, 多數都話..........唔夠光, 俾魚攪等等, 但係以前又開得好好, 又唔多覺好多魚攪o者, 奇怪 橙杻扣、草皮唔多開, d手仔縮哂。草皮就話有苔係面影響佢o者, 杻扣咁粗生都......?:~) 呢兩日有舊角有白化跡象 但係d魚又冇事喎 諗過好多辦法, 又定期落補品, 如鍶、碘、trace element、鈣、葵糧, check水見no2及no3無大變化喎, 諗到頭都爆, 唔通d水開始老化, 無理由丫都係年多o者。 尋日, 睇o左阿浪少個魚缸記錄, 佢話個缸ph跌到7.8要洗缸, 即時諗會唔會關事呢, 事關一路都係用kalkwasser補鈣, 所以ph都幾穩定下, 好耐都冇check過ph。臨瞓前攞枝sera試劑chech ph, 點知............ o下! 得番7.7左右:O), 唔係掛, 係咪太黑睇唔清楚, 或者係受燈膽d黃光影響我o既判斷????? 都係瞓覺先。一覺醒來再睇o下尋晚枝tester o既色真係淡喎, 又試o下check kh, 點知仲大鑊.................... o下! 得番6:O), 又唔係掛, 以前有成11o架, 而ph以前都係8.4左近, 點解會咁呢? 唔理咁多, 第一時間攞番樽kh buffer出來加落去, 今晚開定水等明天換水, 真係唔知點解會攪成咁, 唔通又係衰自己?xx( 各位大哥俾d意見細佬, 點攪好呀? | |
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Posted by: 岩礁園丁 Posted on: 2004-03-30 12:29 連鈕扣都收埋, 都好大擠下喎.:~) 你個魚缸記錄成個幾月冇新消息, 呢段時間, 你搞過 d 乜呀 ? | |
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Posted by: Dickson Posted on: 2004-03-30 12:53 PP-HK 兄：你會唔會好似大頭蝦 講ｏ既“養魚養得耐, 會唔會攪攪新意思”。攪到依家咁？;););) 你冇用ｐｈ表啊，成日要用試劑chech ph，好唔方便。:P:P | |
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Posted by: 幻之無極兇眼男 Posted on: 2004-03-30 13:37 通常唔知發生乜事，我會拿哂d珊瑚、石出來，洗下個缸，吸哂d垃圾，尤其是啡色好似塵的垃圾，換d水，放翻哂d野入去，通常好快會無事。 我平時都係加kalkwasser的，都唔怕ph跌的，kh都好穩定，而且我又有好多條魚，餵又餵得多，得閒又餵下蝦肉，都唔怕會酸得滯。 | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-03-30 15:44 攪攪新意思? 唔係呀, 攪到無乜意思就真, 呢輪d o野唔開, 無心情攪o野o剌。 實在無做過乜o野, 可能呢輪見d珊瑚唔係幾開就餵多o左葵糧, 以前落好少, 多數因為唔記得, 所以一、兩個星期先餵一次, 呢輪就一個星期餵幾次。:(魚又係餵多o左, 因為餵親佢地都好似餓鬼咁, 加o下加o下又多d, 不過呢兩個禮拜已經控制番個份量。今晚番去開定d淡水, 等聽日換水, 學俊俊話齋呢走d啡色d塵, 然後車枝蜂皇漿去谷o下d菌。 未用過蜂皇漿, 係咪就咁車落沙缸就得o架?:I | |
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Posted by: Dickson Posted on: 2004-03-30 16:07 PP-HK 兄：照你咁样講，真係有可能喂多咗。搞到過濾系统頂唔順。咁样唯有加快換水，日日換些少。希望早哋冇事啦。:):):) | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-03-30 17:57 PP-HK兄： 如果你一直keep[$#30528]用kalkwasser,這KH和pH部低的問題應不會發生，是不是個doser有問題。 另外，一般買到的KH Buffer 都不會增加pH太多，如果你的Ca也是低的話，不如就車多[$#21874]kalkwasser落去吧。分3 day, 每 day 增加0.2 pH. 換水當然好，不過車蜂皇漿好像不對症下藥，KH低跟菌及餵食拉不上(?)係吧！ | |
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Posted by: 幻之無極兇眼男 Posted on: 2004-03-30 20:03 PP-HK wrote: 攪攪新意思? 唔係呀, 攪到無乜意思就真, 呢輪d o野唔開, 無心情攪o野o剌。 實在無做過乜o野, 可能呢輪見d珊瑚唔係幾開就餵多o左葵糧, 以前落好少, 多數因為唔記得, 所以一、兩個星期先餵一次, 呢輪就一個星期餵幾次。:(魚又係餵多o左, 因為餵親佢地都好似餓鬼咁, 加o下加o下又多d, 不過呢兩個禮拜已經控制番個份量。今晚番去開定d淡水, 等聽日換水, 學俊俊話齋呢走d啡色d塵, 然後車枝蜂皇漿去谷o下d菌。 未用過蜂皇漿, 係咪就咁車落沙缸就得o架?:I 你唔係殺哂d菌的話，無謂sin錢買蜂皇漿囉。 你可以落重手少少鈣水，我一日落三次，仲要係即開，等30秒後即落，就算d水白哂乜事都無。不過個量過多就會奶野。 | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-03-30 22:34 番到o黎check水, 數值係咁: kh 7 (升o左1) ph 8.4 (用sera及hagen試。有冇攪錯, 升得咁快? 攪到火背仔出水印:~)) no2 0.2 (轉底缸前約0.5) no3 0.3 (轉底缸前大約係25, 照計轉底缸no2應跌, 但係只係跌少少, 反而no3跌好多, 奇怪!) bseeto兄你講得o岩, ph跟菌應試係冇乜關係的, 不過怕郁ph太快 d魚會頂唔住, 落定穩陣d。 仲有樣o野更奇怪, 就係屋企o既水喉水kh竟然係得5:O), 咁低唔通枝kh tester過期? :?):?):?):?):?) 星期六先買o既蚌狀態又唔係幾掂。:( | |
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Posted by: 岩礁園丁 Posted on: 2004-03-30 22:48 死神已經降臨, 要去的, 終要去, 而家就算做o岩左, 水質亦不可能在三兩日內急劇轉好, 定d黎, 慢慢黎, 避免越搞越亂而進一步柯可呀, 拖波收油士撈車喇........ 車枝菌落去, 佢係生至好, 如果都死埋, 就.......唉........ | |
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Posted by: nebula Posted on: 2004-03-30 23:27 PP-HK： 你要諗諗哩排搞過乜喎… 有無用NO3化除器？換光管？有無用鈣反？細心想想任何可能性。 落包kent靚炭吸走D珊瑚分泌，尤其鈕釦。蚌及角轉去其他魚友的魚缸暫放及急救。kalkwasser最好用蒸餾水開。 我哩排都同啡苔搏鬥緊，大家一齊努力。 | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-03-31 00:48 無攪過o野喎B), 星期日係就換過枝老胆, 但係呢個情況已存在o左一排, 應該唔關事。no3去除器及鈣反都冇加度, 除o左餵o野多o左外, 其它一切如舊。 我而家反而擔心係水喉水問題, check完發覺佢o既ph係7.8, kh5, 極為接近個缸的數值。見no2及no3都唔高, 為怕換水反而累事, 所以我決定唔換水住。聽日去買過枝kh tester, 如果kh真係咁低就慢慢將佢較番高。估唔到樽kent buffer咁猛:O), 照足份量都唔掂, 我諗住要減半用先得。 各位大哥, 如果我缸水kh真係咁低, 以你地經驗, 對生物會構成乜影響? 同埋繼續加kh buffer, ph會唔會係咁上呢? [color=red]大恩大德, 沒齒難忘[/color] 估唔到無啦啦攪o左新意思添:P | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-03-31 10:40 PP-HK兄： Buffer 之所以叫 buffer，就是它可keep pH 在一個指定的數值，養魚的buffer是在pH 8.0 - 8.4。如果你照生產商的分量，那當然是會升到8.4了。 你的KH只有7，如果aeration夠，我相信現在的pH又回落少少。 你看到pH大上大落的原因就是KH太小buffering capacity 不夠，不應該是tester的問題。Test水喉水的pH也是沒有意思的，香港的水一般KH都低(雨水來的)，一加salt，打氣，pH就到你用那種salt的pH。所以用水喉水來換水一[$#21874]問題都無。 不信你可以做個 experiment，用1L新咸水(KH夠的，打夠氣令pH穩定下來)test 它的pH，加1L新水喉水(也test過pH)，test下加完後的pH。那pH應跟本來咸水的pH差不多一樣。 KH低的水好無性恪，pH很容易跟了人家。 你要做到園丁兄說的收油士撈車，慢慢把KH加上去，用buffer或kalkwasser也好，test[$#30528]pH慢慢加。 也不要加這加那了，如有懷疑，換水永遠是對的。 另外，你現在[$#30528]燈與晚上的pH fluctuation 可能很大，這也是珊瑚死或不好的原因。試試剛(?switch off)燈時test pH，及早上起身時再test。看看會不會是原因。 | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-03-31 11:42 Sorry guys, my Chinese input is killing me. But I think it is a good time to go off-topic and discuss about the relationship between pH and Alkalinity. Let's simplify the picture. pH is a measure of protons (i.e. hydrogen ions). KH is a measure of alkalinity. In salt water tank, most of the alkalinity comes from carbonate and bicarbonate ions (the rest comes from a whole lot of things too, especially borate, but let's don't get too complicated). Note that bicarbonate ion is a carbonate ion binded with a proton. CO2, bi/carbonate ions and protons in water can change back and forth. Their reaction in water will either gives u more protons or gives u less protons, thus, affecting the pH. Now, CO2 is free and is in the air, so with good aeration. The balance state (equilibrium) will give you a pH in the 8.0-8.4 range. This equilibrium give us the buffering we need. For example, if more acid is added into the water (say, a fish just peep), it will force the carbonate ions to react with the new protons and gives out bicarbonate then CO2. The excess CO2 will then make its way back to the air. So the pH will not change. The more bi/carbonate ions we have in the water, the more capacity we have to buffer the pH change. That's why, we want to have a KH to be large. KH = 9 is normal enough (natural sea water is at 8 or 9) but some people will go even further and make it to 11 without any adverse effect on the organisms in our tank. That's about it, it sounds complicated but in fact, it's quite straight forward. The end result is that, if our KH is low, pH will fluctuate a lot, affecting the health of the organisms. Even normal photosynthesis during light on will affect the CO2 concentration in the tank. If our KH is too low, this in itself will give u a large pH fluctuation. | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-03-31 12:04 bseeto兄, 雖然未能完全明白你篇大作, 但係你總結得好清楚。以前都知ph跟kh有著微妙關係, 經你一點我明白好多。由於我個缸kh得咁低, 怪不得ph會郁得咁犀利。現今唯有慢慢將佢較番高, 但要在唔影響d魚為原則, 否則我老虎會咬死我(尋晚佢見到心愛o既火背仔出水印已經好緊張)。但有樣好奇怪, 就係以前個缸o既kh係11到, 有乜因素會令佢跌o左咁多呢? 不過我真係好耐都冇test過ph同kh了。另外就算今次調番佢上去, 又會唔會好快又跌番落o黎呢? 英文我睇得明白(不過化學就唔明:I), 唔駛勞煩你打中文咁辛苦。 | |
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Posted by: iwave Posted on: 2004-03-31 12:17 PP-HK 兄 你都算醒目，有追睇我的魚缸紀綠。 呢排唔知做乜，加極 KH 粉 同 PH 粉 個 缸的 PH 都係跌得好快下。 洗缸後都係咁 要時時睇住 唔知同天氣轉有無關。 | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-03-31 13:48 對我呢d新仔來說, 你個tank log梗要追睇啦, 唔係點學到o野喎。:D講番正題, 你落buffer個ph同kh唔郁會唔會係份量問題, 我200L水都建議落2.5茶更喎, 不過, 有時有效未必好, 好似我咁一落完ph即彈上o左0.07, 火背即時中招起水印:~), 藍吊同小丑擦身:(, 咪話唔驚。 PH就話餵多o左或者加魚痾得多所以跌o者, kh都唔知點解會跌? | |
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Posted by: 岩礁園丁 Posted on: 2004-03-31 14:06 肥浪個問題係佢早排大爆綠水青苔, 一鑊過清理後的暫時影響, 只要勤換棉, keep 好d 個 skimmer, 遲下會冇事. | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-03-31 14:18 PP-HK wrote: 但有樣好奇怪, 就係以前個缸o既kh係11到, 有乜因素會令佢跌o左咁多呢? 不過我真係好耐都冇test過ph同kh了。另外就算今次調番佢上去, 又會唔會好快又跌番落o黎呢? The encrusted bone of coral and coralline algae are made mostly of calcium (Ca) AND carbonate (CO3). They will pull those ions from the water. That is the reason why you need to add both of them in your tank. Kalkwasser (lime water) is a good way to add them because it is a balanced additive of Ca and CO3. There are additives that only gives you ONE part. e.g. Kent Turbo Calcium and Liquid Calcium, only gives you the Ca part but the Kent's buffers gives you the CO3 part. I haven't read your tank log yet, so I am not sure how/what you add as suppliments in the tank. But I think you need to adjust you lime water dosage. In addition to lime water, are you also adding the calcium additives without adding a balanced amount of buffer? Changing water frequently will help to replenish the Ca and CO3 but dosing limewater (or calcium + buffer) should be your primary means of replenishment. Testing the water's Ca and KH periodically will give you a picture of your tank's need. Adjust the dosage with these measurements in hand. Our target Ca and KH concentration is over the saturation limit of water. There is another mechanism involving magnesium to prevent CaCO3 precipitating like a snow storm in the tank. Anyway, it is very close, so, adjust your dosage slowly and make sure you don't over shoot. You may ask what happen if you over-shoot, right? Let's take kalkwasser as an example. Kalkwasser = lime water = Ca + OH in a water solution. The solution is very alkaline. pH = 12. Obviously, if you pour too much and too quickly in you tank. Your 火背仔 will 出水印 or even die. Even if your organisms can take the beating, your tank pH will be too high (in the higher 8.x range), the saturation limit of CaCO3 will be lower. You will then have a lot of precipitation on your pump and heater. Instead of adding Ca and CO3 in the water, those level will drop and you wasted your money. That's why we usually drip the lime water in our tank slowly. Measure and adjust the dosage. That's it, quite simple. Most experience reefer know what to do with their tank without even knowing the underlining reason. Too bad is that most FS sales bullshits us dosing additives. Oh, by the way, in case you wonder why I said lime water is a balanced additives. Yes, it doesn't have carbonate in it. But it will pull CO2 from the air and gives you carbonates. Just make sure you don't let it to pull CO2 before adding it in the tank, otherwise, you end up with water and a lot of CaCO3 solid in the bottle. | |
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Posted by: 幻之無極兇眼男 Posted on: 2004-03-31 14:19 PP-HK wrote: 對我呢d新仔來說, 你個tank log梗要追睇啦, 唔係點學到o野喎。:D講番正題, 你落buffer個ph同kh唔郁會唔會係份量問題, 我200L水都建議落2.5茶更喎, 不過, 有時有效未必好, 好似我咁一落完ph即彈上o左0.07, 火背即時中招起水印:~), 藍吊同小丑擦身:(, 咪話唔驚。 PH就話餵多o左或者加魚痾得多所以跌o者, kh都唔知點解會跌? 餵得多，水會酸，咁d CO3 離子就會先去中和d酸，咁kh(CO3離子數目)會先跌，當CO3唔夠用，ph就會跌。好似係咁啦。 | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-03-31 14:47 Oh oh, 姚俊 beat me to it. Forgot to add that even if you are having a FOT. The acidic biological waste will drive CO3 back to CO2 and back to the air. | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-01 10:02 明喇.........明喇.........:) 即係又係因為我之前貪得意餵多o左攪壞d水, 引致ph同kh下跌, 我會留意事態發展。不過, 一直都有test no2同no3, 見佢無升先加重餵飼量, 菌同ph 的關係我都仲有些少混淆。 我一直都係用kalkwasser來補充鈣, 不過無用doser, 係一次過車落去, 當然唔連d粉喇, 不過我估計我落o既份量太輕。間中有用ab水, 都係兩樽落哂。 尋晚加o左kalk, 今朝check ph8.2-3, kh又跌番至6, 今晚番去check o下 ca, 再報! 多謝兩位大俠拔刀相助;) | |
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Posted by: 幻之無極兇眼男 Posted on: 2004-04-01 12:15 PP-HK wrote: 明喇.........明喇.........:) 即係又係因為我之前貪得意餵多o左攪壞d水, 引致ph同kh下跌, 我會留意事態發展。不過, 一直都有test no2同no3, 見佢無升先加重餵飼量, 菌同ph 的關係我都仲有些少混淆。 我一直都係用kalkwasser來補充鈣, 不過無用doser, 係一次過車落去, 當然唔連d粉喇, 不過我估計我落o既份量太輕。間中有用ab水, 都係兩樽落哂。 尋晚加o左kalk, 今朝check ph8.2-3, kh又跌番至6, 今晚番去check o下 ca, 再報! 多謝兩位大俠拔刀相助;) 有菌，分解d垃圾、食物，水變酸，水酸了，用緊d kh，kh用到咁上下，ph就跌。 即係 有菌 -> ph跌:) | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-01 13:55 有菌－＞PH跌, E..................咁又有d hints喎, 自從換o左底缸後no2跌o左些少, 但no3就從20幾30插到0.3, 係咪代表d菌o既活躍程度高o左? 如果呢個諗法係o岩既話, co3既用量就會大o左, 結果係kh下跌, ph受影響波動大o左。(但係穩約記得橙鈕扣縮時又好似係換底缸前喎) 而家諗緊diy個kalk doser, 希望可以將kh穩定下來, 唔該各路人馬有無成品或圖片參考o下呢。;) | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-02 09:35 尋晚check ca同po4: ca 360 po4接近0 鹽度 1.021-2 總結呢幾日check水o既數值, 雖然談不上好, 除kh稍為低外, 水質似乎又唔見有大問題喎:?), 睇下面........... no2 0.2 n03 0.3 ph 8.2 kh 6 ca 360 po4 close to 0 鹽度 1.021-2 究意會係乜原因令到d生物咁呢:~):~):~):~):~):?):~):~):~):~):~) 設備如下: 主缸 + 底缸約200L水, 3,300L上水泵一出三加1,200L潛水頭做水流 10,000k (以前用開14,000k, 這個星期換胆) 150w老仔 x 1每天開8.5hrs 藍管 x 2每天開13hrs 水冷－＞水溫keep係26度 h&s 化氮 9w uv (新換管約個多月) tm科學鹽 生物石約70磅 鈣沙做dsb 個人習慣: 每星期換約4%水(加新水劑除氯, 隔夜打氣, 當天溝鹽) 每兩星期換白棉一次 每一至兩星期添加trace element, 鍶、鉬、碘 用kalk及ab水交替補鈣, 不定時 每天餵魚一次, 珊瑚就不定時 生物: 魚毛十條(最大三吋)、醫生蝦一隻、扁蟲唔知幾多隻 珊瑚20幾件掛 有乜唔對路地方請點醒我;) | |
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Posted by: catlee Posted on: 2004-04-02 11:09 PP-HK兄! 好明顯你個名有問題!! PK 夾住PH, 個ph一定pk 啦!:}) 要開會, 一陣先再吹 :P | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-02 11:53 pk夾住ph, 中間仲有個負號, 所以ph跌..................唔.........有道理...有道理:}) 我.....頂:!( | |
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Posted by: Dickson Posted on: 2004-04-02 12:16 所以話唔惊生孬命，只怕改錯名！果個負號改成正號就得啦。:P:P:P | |
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Posted by: 康仔 Posted on: 2004-04-02 12:56 catlee wrote: PP-HK兄! 好明顯你個名有問題!! PK 夾住PH, 個ph一定pk 啦!:}) 要開會, 一陣先再吹 :P 貓兄真係幾時都咁有諗頭:D:D:D:D | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-02 14:24 貓兄真係鐵板神算.......我再諗深一層...........明喇...........慘呀.......... pp-hk反轉來再加d幻想力, 咪即係...............kh-dd [color=red]唔掛得啦![/color]:( | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-04-02 16:20 You really do have a kh-dd problem. :D Take a look at a dosing calculator: http://www.kademani.com/reefchem.htm You have to add 2.5 gallons (10L) kalk water to get to Ca = 400ppm and KH = 11dkh Keep on dosing! :P (remember to do it slowly across several days. | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-04-02 16:41 On the topic of doser, I saw a neat design. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread.php?s=bda15bcd0cba55f1f3ae2e7ab0a9e6fc&threadid=12304 If you don't have a float switch now, you may just put a liter of lime water in the jug. And adjust manually the air pump to give you a slower rate. I am going to DIY it during the Easter holiday. Let's see. | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-02 17:25 bseeto兄, 真係多謝你咁有耐性幫我解決問題:D, 順便多謝咁多老友咁熱心幫我改名B)。呢幾日都有上網去睇d有關diy kalk doser o既文章, 你o個篇我之前未睇過, 也好正。可惜我呢個電子、化學白痴, 空有一股熱誠, 不過實在無料, 想引大師級kk落搭去鴨記又唔受我昆。所以心目中都係想用一個樽去做(同你個url個差唔多設計), 但只有人手控制的doser, 諗住每晚加料滴到天光就算。有時間今晚就開工, 不過聽日要跟太上皇回鄉唔知夠唔夠時間。 唯幸, 得知兄你有心完成大作, 敬請在完成後給予小弟見識一o下..............若不嫌棄幫我做一個就感激非常。:D kh-dd:( | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-02 17:37 剛接太上皇急召, 今晚要交人, kalk doser的計劃要順延。另在網上看到有關蚌的文章, 提及蚌在kh高的環境(高於10)生長會較好, 存活率會提升, 大家有無意見。:P | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-04-02 19:38 PP-HK wrote: 但只有人手控制的doser, 諗住每晚加料滴到天光就算。 If you use the normal gravity feed design, you can find those nice IV dripper at any medical supply shop. They are easier to control than the valves in FS. Make sure there is enough height difference between dripper and your sump. And you have to rinse the tube with vinegar every couple of weeks to ensure a controllabe drip rate. On the other hand, the air driven design doesn't have the above short-coming. 若不嫌棄幫我做一個就感激非常。:D Making one for you is not a problem, but let me try try first. I am also currently on business trip (that's why I spend so much time on this board lately), I am still not sure whether I can be back for Easter. | |
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Posted by: PP-HK Posted on: 2004-04-02 21:39 bseeto wrote: the air driven design doesn't have the above short-coming. 呢種設計曾經係網上見過, 但唔係好明, 可否解釋一o下, thx。 | |
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Posted by: bseeto Posted on: 2004-04-02 22:00 bseeto wrote: On the topic of doser, I saw a neat design. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread.php?s=bda15bcd0cba55f1f3ae2e7ab0a9e6fc&threadid=12304 This is the air driven design. There is no moving part or valve in contact with the kalk water. | |
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Posted by: whcheng Posted on: 2005-04-06 12:01 請問如果KH太高會有咩問題呢? | |
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Posted by: elvismok Posted on: 2005-05-20 01:01 如果kh過高ph過低可以點攪? kh = 29dkh ph = 7.18 新缸一個星期 | |
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